His career is over anyway. Right?1. Jonathan Broxton just can't handle the heat in close games.
This is a particularly odd claim because the opposite argument is actually valid. Broxton seems to get better as the run differential decreases. In other words, there's a case to be made that Broxton loses concentration when he enters games that are already decided.
Gee, I guess he does need to get mentally tougher.
2. All the statistics in the world don't change the fact that he blew the save.
True, but what is the point of making a statement like this? The only way any closer could ever escape this criticism is if he never blew a save in his career. Good luck on your quest for that pitcher.
3. Jonathan Broxton blows the big games.
Correct me if i'm wrong here, but isn't every game in the postseason a big game? It is to me. Is the argument here really that it would be acceptable for Broxton to blow Game 2 of the NLCS or Game 1 of the NLDS? I can't fathom somebody who would actually believe that.
So again, the standard here is that he is not allowed to blow a postseason game. Like I said before, good luck finding that pitcher.
4. I don't care what your numbers say, I know what I saw!
That's fine to say, but is this really a serious argument?
By that logic, I am free to believe Albert Pujols is the worst player in history because he had a mere 1 RBI against the Dodgers. Of course, that would make me an idiot, which is sort of my point.
To the people who use this argument, can you please tell me what qualifies you to see things at a level that is above everybody else? Why should we listen to what you say because of what your eyes tell you? What makes you so different from us? Answer that and i'll give credibility to your whining.
Personally, I have always relied to a blend of scouting type analysis and objective information. Yes, I do mainly rely on statistics, and that's because I like my opinions to be grounded in facts, not presumption. What a thought.
5. You're just being a homer.
Possibly the most hilarious accusation of my analysis when you consider that this blog was started primarily to critique players and management, not praise them.
Casey Blake's OPS this NLCS is .267, but I still think he's a solid player. If that makes me a homer, then i'm not sure what the standards are.
I'm a homer for supporting one of the best closers in the majors through some tough times? I'm a homer for not believing the Dodgers should trade Clayton Kershaw and Matt Kemp after their poor NLCS? I'm a homer for not wanting to go back to the 90s version of the Dodgers which was full of old men who couldn't even make the playoffs? I'm a homer because I don't see how the onus of an entire team's failure should fall on one man because he blew a save?
Then fine, I accept that title and wear it proudly.
6. So it's fine to have a closer that's awesome until the NLCS?
Nope, it's not okay. However, I think it's a tad ridiculous to presume that Broxton is completely fine in high pressure situations throughout the regular season and into the NLDS, but then once the NLCS comes around he collapses. As if pitching in the NLCS turns him into putty or something.
We currently have two series worth of games to judge him with in that case. If you want to roll forward with your overstated opinions then fine, but I expect you to take all such sample sizes seriously.
"Vicente Padilla is the greatest pitcher in NLCS history."
Nobody who believes that Broxton suddenly pressures out in the NLCS should have a problem with that statement.
Who else would you want out there besides Jonathan Broxton?
The initial reaction from most fans I talk to is "anybody", but before we all nod our heads in agreement, let's take a look at the reality of the situation.
Mariano Rivera, probably the greatest closer ever, blew three of the most memorable games in postseason baseball history. He blew back-to-back games in the infamous 2004 Yankees collapse against the Red Sox, and he blew Game 7 of the World Series in 2001.
Jonathan Papelbon just had one of the worst postseason closer meltdowns I have ever seen in the 2009 ALDS against the Angels.
I realize both of those guys have won World Series and have had postseason success, so i'll surrender the point on those two closers.
But who else?
Joe Nathan? Nope. He singled handedly wrecked the Twins chances against the Yankees in the 2009 ALCS. Nathan has never been on a team that has won a postseason series.
Brian Fuentes? Laughable. He's way worse than Broxton in terms of overall skill, he has never been on a World Series winner, and he has a postseason track record of getting wrecked.
Ryan Franklin? Hahaha.
Trevor Hoffman? He has rapidly declining skills and doesn't really compare to Broxton. Besides, he's never been on a World Series winning team, and that was likely due to the fact that he got destroyed by the Yankees in the 1998 World Series.
Fernando Rodney? He's in the same boat as Hoffman. Bad skills? Check. Never won a World Series? Check. Never won a World Series partially due to his own poor pitching? Check.
Huston Street? You saw the other 2009 NLDS series, right?
Francisco Rodriguez? Finally, a relief pitcher with a ring. Unfortunately, he got that ring as a setup man, not a closer. He has given up 7 runs in 13 postseason innings as a closer and has never been on a World Series winning team as a closer.
Chad Qualls? Zero postseason saves and has been generally horrid in the postseason. Inferior pitcher. Hasn't won a World Series.
Kerry Wood? Zero postseason saves. A mere three innings as a postseason reliever. Inferior pitcher. Hasn't won a World Series.
Jose Valverde? Inferior skills to Broxton and has only had four postseason innings. Hasn't won a World Series.
Bobby Jenks? Inferior skills to Broxton, but this might be the only other legit case. He has a World Series win and has had success in the postseason. Still though, taking Jenks would cause me to seriously question whether or not I believe he is the third best closer in the major leagues today.
Brad Lidge? The funny thing is that he has a positive overall postseason track record and he now has a World Series to his name. It's funny because he surrendered the most memorable postseason home run in recent history to Albert Pujols. His skills are remarkably inconsistent as well. He goes from elite to crap to elite to crap at what seems like random. You can take him if you want, but i'll stay away from the fluctuations.
Heath Bell, Francisco Cordero, Brian Wilson, David Aardsma, Rafael Soriano, Matt Capps, Andrew Bailey, Leo Nunez, Frank Francisco and Joakim Soria are all current closers, but none of them have any postseason experience, so I don't see how they would match the desired standards of a postseason closer.
So after reading all of that garbage, who would you like to close out Game 5 of the NLCS? I would take Mariano Rivera and Jonathan Papelbon and that's about it. Good luck getting them on the Dodgers before tomorrow.
You want Jonathan Broxton released? You want him traded? You want him demoted? That's fine, it's your opinion and you can cling to it if you wish.
All i'm saying is to be careful what you wish for.
You just might get it.
30 Comments:
Kensai - You're absolutely right. I used to be one of these guys who would complain about Broxton. Everytime he would come in, I was on edge, and worried. I changed my opinion on Broxton a few months ago. Why? Because I couldn't think of anyone else I would rather have closing. And because I finally came to the realization that I had been spoiled by Eric Gagne and Takashi Saito. Broxton has developed into one of the best closers in the game, and probably the best in the NL.
There are only 3 closers that I would even think about wanting as opposed to Brox, and two of them got shelled this year in the Postseason, the other has been shelled before. Nathan, Papelbon (or as I like to call him... Douche-bag), and Mighty Mo.
But I think you all are seeing why I didn't like the Sherrill deal. He has done nothing but blow huge chunks this postseason. He doesn't scare anyone with his fastball and if he can't find the zone (or isn't getting the F*n calls) then he is worthless. I much prefer Kuo as the primary setup man and Sherrill as a swing man.
Oh, and my opinion wouldn't change if Kuo was setup and got beat on occasion. Sherrill got lucky that he didn't get worked more this season. Walks too many guys and doesn't truly have the stuff to blow anyone away. He is like Fuentes in that regard.
Penos-We don't even know what Gagne or Saito would do.
Gagne never got there. Saito did but was hurt and blew chunks in that one game. :o
Stig-I like Nathan as well.
Kuo has always been better than Sherrill.
"Brad Lidge? The funny thing is that he has a positive overall postseason track record and he now has a World Series to his name. It's funny because he surrendered the most memorable postseason home run in recent history to Albert Pujols."
Actually, Broxton surrendered the most memorable postseaon home run in recent history to Matt Stairs..... just sayin'
How was that a memorable home run to anybody but Phillies fans?
I can't name a single baseball fan who doesn't know about that home run.
Nobody cares abou the Stairs home run, probably because it was hit by Stairs.
You want some numbers? Maybe you should get a closer that can handle high pressure situations on the road. Your boy has a 5.8 ERA on the road and blew I think five saves during the regular season away from home. So let me put it this way; Your boy can't handle high pressure situations away from the almost baseball fans that reside in Dodger's stadium, and has officially cost the Dodgers being tied 2-2 in the NLCS in back to back season against the same team. OUCH
and it really looked like Broxton was remembering that home run when he was pitchin to stairs last night. Stairs has been terrible since the all-star break, and Broxton was shakin in his little booties. Nice pitch to J-Roll by the way, right down the middle.
He has had a bad season on the road this year, but it is a single year. I don't look into too much.
He blew that first game in the NLCS at home anyway, so I don't get your point.
He handles high pressure situations almost every time he enters the game regardless.
Where are you Phillies trolls coming from anyway?
I'm sure he is the first closer to make a mistake.
Chadsai - unfortunately, because you are now an ESPN affiliate, I think trolls will be here from time to time. thems are the breaks...
Broxton sucked hard on the road this year.
Thoughts? What do you think if home/road splits in general? I find it hard to understand.
Stig-I've been on ESPN for over two weeks now and have had no issues. Pretty sure they got linked from somewhere.
Takes real balls to come troll four games into a series though.
Alex-I can't say it's a primary concern.
Home/road splits are useful if you pitch in a huge pitcher's park or hit in a huge hitter's park, but Dodgers Stadium is neither anymore, despite what the media constantly claims.
It's a neutral park, and I find it VERY hard to believe that Broxton would "pressure out" against the scary fans of the Pirates or something, which was probably he worst outing of the year.
Could be a comfort thing, but he has posted decent enough road splits in the past, so I dunno.
His command and health are my primary concerns, if you were wondering. :o
Kensai, I am one of the few people who are sticking with Broxton, no matter what. He is one of the best, and has a lot of Eric Gagne in him(the good parts).
However, Id take Mariano Rivera over almost anyone in a one run game... I guess its the New York thing lol
Mariano spits on the ball
Mo can shit on the ball for all I care. He is the best closer ever and even he has been beaten hard before. But he is one of three that I would consider over Broxton and probably the only one that I would take over Broxton. Broxton is young, a stud, and cost controlled. Plus he isn't a retarded douche unlike Papelbon. Nathan is very very good, I think the second best to Mo over the past 8 years, but he doesn't have a proven track record in the playoffs, he is older, and he is more money, so I wouldn't take him over Broxton... but he is a consideration in a fantasy world.
im not hating on Mo.
it's just a new little controversy right now. no big deal. MLB said he didnt do anything wrong
What does spitting on a ball do anyway, especially if you are throwing a hard cutter? Seems like that would hurt your ability to get the extra velocity and movement on a hard thrown ball...
LDY4L-That's why I said Mariano Rivera.
Stig-Spitting on the ball wouldn't do anything for a cutter. Which is why he didn't spit on the ball.
Chadsai - thanks, didn't think so. Just doesn't make sense.
(Clap) nothing more to say to that!
Spitting on a ball where your index/middle fingers hold it cause the ball to slip out of your grip, rather than roll off your fingertips. When a four-seam fastball rolls off your fingertips with 12-6 spin, it helps the ball travel as straight as possible, with the four seams acting similarly to the paddles on the paddlewheel of a riverboat.
If the ball slips off your fingertips and the pitch has a lower RPM, then the friction from the passing air has a greater effect. Due to the irregularities in the seams and the surface of the ball itself, it can cause it to break in a myriad of unpredictable trajectories. You can think of it has a high-speed knuckleball. A spitball is typically thrown in a no-seam fastball grip - that is, index and middle fingers pointed at the inside of a horseshoe, and the same goes for the thrower's thumb.
As for a cutter... a cut fastball is thrown with either a fourseam offset grip, a fourseam grip with dominance on either the middle or index fingers, depending upon which way you want it to cut, or a three seam grip. As you can see from this picture, Mariano throws a three seam cutter.
http://www.delawareonline.com/blogs/uploaded_images/mo-787251.jpg
A cutter requires you to have a high rpm generated in an off-center direction for the ball to cut. The spitter action can make a ball cut, but not predictably. I'll be surprised if anyone reads all this, and yet, I typed it anyway.
You could have just said "yes". :o
hard to want Mo over Brox at this stage of their careers, unless you're talking this year only. of course for those that think we ought to run out and trade for somebody better, please post a list of which of our players and prospects you think we'd have to give up. It will be considerable.
And your trade should include somebody on our 25. Stars dont come cheap, if they did, Colletti would have them.
Well yeah, I mean at this very moment. Not for future considerations.
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